Template talk:2023 Rugby World Cup Pool B

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So what if it's 3-way on 15 and Scotland beats Ireland by 5 or 20? In the former case, RSA and IRE are tied on 117; in the latter, RSA and SCO are tied on 117. To me, the obvious solution would be IRE>RSA>SCO in the former case and RSA>SCO>IRE in the latter due to head to head result between the teams with +117. However, the rules suggest that we then may have to look at try difference (across all pool matches) for all three teams. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.126.230.67 (talk) 21:24, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001212400","author":"74.126.230.67","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-74.126.230.67-20231001212400-Tie-breaker","replies":["c-Jmharve-20231001214600-74.126.230.67-20231001212400"]}}-->

Weird that the best they could do is write rules that "suggest" an answer to us. Not that hard to be definitive! I think if things ended this way there would be a lot of lawyers turning up. Jmharve (talk) 21:46, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001214600","author":"Jmharve","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Jmharve-20231001214600-74.126.230.67-20231001212400","replies":["c-74.126.230.67-20231001214900-Jmharve-20231001214600"]}}-->

Considering that it's World Rugby, I don't find it particularly weird, just frustrating. 74.126.230.67 (talk) 21:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001214900","author":"74.126.230.67","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-74.126.230.67-20231001214900-Jmharve-20231001214600","replies":[]}}-->

According to the tie-breakers, " in the case of a tie between three or more Teams at the end of the pool phase, once the highest ranked Team has been determined following the above criteria, to determine the next higher ranked Team the process would repeat, starting at the first criterion." To me this reads that if Scotland beats Ireland by 21+ with one bonus to each, yielding a 3-way on 15 points, then Scotland will win the pool with a +118 difference, and then Ireland will be #2 based on winning their match against South Africa. I think that rule is very bad - for one thing, it doesn't make sense; for another, if Ireland finds themselves down by 19 points, it would then behoove them to let Scotland score again - but it is the rule as currently written. As such, I don't think we can give RSA their Q just yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.126.230.67 (talk) 21:04, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001210400","author":"74.126.230.67","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-74.126.230.67-20231001210400-South_Africa_qualified_\/_not_qualified","replies":["c-195.213.45.173-20231001211300-74.126.230.67-20231001210400"]}}-->

Correct, RSA have not yet qualified due to the three-team classification rules. 195.213.45.173 (talk) 21:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001211300","author":"195.213.45.173","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-195.213.45.173-20231001211300-74.126.230.67-20231001210400","replies":["c-74.126.230.67-20231001211500-195.213.45.173-20231001211300"]}}-->

What an idiotic rule! Of course, this is not the forum to discuss that. The rule is what it is. 74.126.230.67 (talk) 21:15, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001211500","author":"74.126.230.67","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-74.126.230.67-20231001211500-195.213.45.173-20231001211300","replies":["c-195.213.45.173-20231001212400-74.126.230.67-20231001211500"]}}-->

For everyone's benefit, here's the link for the official classification rules:

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/35290

Here's the (very unlikely) scenario where RSA fail to qualify:

Scotland beat Ireland 51-20, with both teams scoring 4 tries or more.

All three teams end up on 15 points.

Since Scotland beat Ireland, Ireland beat RSA and RSA beat Scotland, no classification is possible on result between the teams.

Scotland have the best points difference and qualify first.

The rules then states that the other teams are classified from the start of the list again. Equal points, but this time Ireland's win against RSA puts them 2nd even though their points difference is worse. In that scenario, Scotland and Ireland qualify, and RSA are out.

Never gonna happen? Agreed, but it's possible, so the Q next to RSA is premature. 195.213.45.173 (talk) 21:24, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001212400","author":"195.213.45.173","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-195.213.45.173-20231001212400-74.126.230.67-20231001211500","replies":["c-74.126.230.67-20231001212800-195.213.45.173-20231001212400"]}}-->

Of course, that is the rule set from four years ago (I hope the last tie breaker wouldn't be the rankings on October 14, 2019), but I have not been able to find a current version. Not that I expect anything to have changed aside from (hopefully, but this IS World Rugby that we're talking about) the date. 74.126.230.67 (talk) 21:28, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001212800","author":"74.126.230.67","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-74.126.230.67-20231001212800-195.213.45.173-20231001212400","replies":["c-Jmharve-20231001214100-74.126.230.67-20231001212800"]}}-->

I don't even understand the rule. Say Scotland win by 5, with a BP for each team. Now they are all three tied on 15, with IRL and RSA tied at the top on point difference. Would IRL go through as winner of the head to head, or would we go on to tries, etc? It's unclear to me. Jmharve (talk) 21:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001214100","author":"Jmharve","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Jmharve-20231001214100-74.126.230.67-20231001212800","replies":["c-74.126.230.67-20231001214500-Jmharve-20231001214100","c-195.213.45.173-20231001214600-Jmharve-20231001214100"]}}-->

As I read it, it would have to go to tries, even though IRE > RSA > SCO seems much more fair. I suppose the standings here should show TA and TD, not just TF, as TD is much more important. 74.126.230.67 (talk) 21:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001214500","author":"74.126.230.67","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-74.126.230.67-20231001214500-Jmharve-20231001214100","replies":[]}}-->

Yes, after points difference, it's tries difference. Then it's points scored, then it's tries scored. Lastly it's ranking. 195.213.45.173 (talk) 21:46, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001214600","author":"195.213.45.173","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-195.213.45.173-20231001214600-Jmharve-20231001214100","replies":[]}}-->

Seems to be some confusion around the tie-breaking rules and whether Romania are definitely eliminated yet. I thought they could still go through per a BBC article which stated that "Tonga and Romania could still qualify by winning their final two games with bonus points, but are relying on Scotland and South Africa also finishing the pool on 10 points and then having a best points difference of the second-placed trio." but as Larryone (talk · contribs) has pointed out, they are wrong. Tournament rules say that the first criteria for breaking a tie is that "The winner of the Match in which the two tied Teams have played each other shall be the higher ranked." and that "For clarification, in the case of a tie between three or more Teams at the end of the pool phase, once the highest ranked Team has been determined following the above criteria, to determine the next higher ranked Team the process would repeat, starting at criterion 1.". South Africa already hold wins over both Scotland and Romania so will win any 3-way tie there (although not necessarily in a South Africa / Scotland / Tonga tie). Probably all academic after tomorrow anyway! Bcp67 (talk) 09:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230929095000","author":"Bcp67","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bcp67-20230929095000-Romania_eliminated_\/_not_eliminated","replies":["c-158.140.225.188-20231001210700-Bcp67-20230929095000"]}}-->

While it's now academic, Bcp67 misunderstood the tie-break rules. The first tie-breaking criterion applies only to a two-way tie (or a remaining two-way tie after deciding every higher place in a multi-way tie). If three or more teams tie on table points, and one of those has the best point difference, then, regardless of anything else, that team has the highest placing among the tied teams. 158.140.225.188 (talk) 21:07, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20231001210700","author":"158.140.225.188","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-158.140.225.188-20231001210700-Bcp67-20230929095000","replies":[]}}-->