Template talk:Buddy Holly

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Remove Crickets Links?

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Just wondering, should the songs/albums that are exclusively associated with The Crickets be taken out of the infobox? The Crickets also have their own infobox, and it might seem redundant with all the overlap with the Buddy Holly overlap. Thanks -Disco dude rock (talk) 02:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","author":"Disco dude rock","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z-Remove_Crickets_Links?","replies":["c-Elfast-2016-10-13T09:22:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","c-Elfast-2016-10-13T09:31:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","c-Elfast-2016-10-13T09:33:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","c-Elfast-2016-10-15T10:20:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","c-Elfast-2016-10-17T14:17:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","c-Elfast-2016-10-17T20:40:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","c-Elfast-2016-10-25T14:21:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","c-Elfast-2016-10-29T00:10:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z"]}}-->

I totally disagree. You don't seem to know the story of Buddy Holly and the Crickets, I invite you to read the Crickets article and specially this :

In 1957 Norman Petty arranged for the Crickets' recordings to be marketed under two separate names. The solo vocals were released as being
by Buddy Holly, and the songs with dubbed backing vocals were issued as being by the Crickets.[2] Petty reasoned correctly that disc
jockeys might be reluctant to program a single artist too heavily but would play records by two seemingly different groups. Some disc
jockeys referred to the band as "Buddy Holly and the Crickets", but record labels never used this wording until after Holly's death.

The Crickets was the name of the backing band of Buddy Holly. You can note that songs on The "Chirping" Crickets and Buddy Holly (album) were recorded by the right same musicians. All these releases are part of the Buddy Holly repertoire.

The Crickets after Buddy Holly's death, who released In Style With the Crickets, is another story. It's a Sonny Curtis led band, who played with Buddy Holly when the band was called The Three Tunes or Buddy and the Two Tones.

Elfast (talk) 09:22, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-13T09:22:00.000Z","author":"Elfast","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Elfast-2016-10-13T09:22:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

PS: Renown Buddy Holly musicological book by Dave Laing, which analyses Buddy's repertoire treats the songs from The "Chirping" Crickets as well as the others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elfast (talk • contribs) 09:31, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-13T09:31:00.000Z","author":"Elfast","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Elfast-2016-10-13T09:31:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

PS2: Maybe the distinction can be made in the infobox but songs from The "Chirping" Crickets have to appear in it. Elfast (talk) 09:33, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-13T09:33:00.000Z","author":"Elfast","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Elfast-2016-10-13T09:33:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","replies":["c-Disco_dude_rock-2016-10-13T22:47:00.000Z-Elfast-2016-10-13T09:33:00.000Z"]}}-->

Okay, but that doesn't seem like a strong enough case to distinguish them both. There is a Crickets template and a Buddy Holly template - absolutely no need for redundancy. Yes, I am aware of the Crickets' backstory, thank you very much for that, but what matters is that they became their own band after that. Holly still concurrently released solo material at this time, as well as after his departure from the Crickets. -Disco dude rock (talk) 22:47, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-13T22:47:00.000Z","author":"Disco dude rock","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Disco_dude_rock-2016-10-13T22:47:00.000Z-Elfast-2016-10-13T09:33:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

The problem is that what you call Holly's solo material is not more a solo material than material released under the name The Crickets. I don't see any problem with having two templates on some articles (it is already the case on many articles), but, considering there are not many links in the templates (with only one album of the Crickets without Buddy), maybe we can fuse the two templates under the name Buddy Holly and the Crickets (with the name of the band credited on the cover between brackets or different lines). Elfast (talk) 10:20, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-15T10:20:00.000Z","author":"Elfast","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Elfast-2016-10-15T10:20:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","replies":["c-Disco_dude_rock-2016-10-17T04:57:00.000Z-Elfast-2016-10-15T10:20:00.000Z"]}}-->

That could work, but the main point is that the two different labels were a conscious decision, despite sometimes involving the same musicians. It can get confusing because Holly had true solo releases predating and proceeding the Crickets. That's why I think it's best left as two. -Disco dude rock (talk) 04:57, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-17T04:57:00.000Z","author":"Disco dude rock","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Disco_dude_rock-2016-10-17T04:57:00.000Z-Elfast-2016-10-15T10:20:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Note that The "Chirping" Crickets has also been released under the name Buddy Holly and The Crickets in the 1960s. See : http://www.albumartexchange.com/covers/289217-buddy-holly-and-the-crickets-12 or https://www.discogs.com/Buddy-Holly-And-The-Crickets-Buddy-Holly-And-The-Crickets/release/5999730 for instance (see others here https://www.discogs.com/master/view/148363 ). Elfast (talk) 14:17, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-17T14:17:00.000Z","author":"Elfast","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Elfast-2016-10-17T14:17:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","replies":["c-Disco_dude_rock-2016-10-17T17:08:00.000Z-Elfast-2016-10-17T14:17:00.000Z"]}}-->

An interesting oddity, but it's been noted in the page, and has since reverted back to its original credits with later pressings. It's also a posthumous release, and since the 70s/80s, "Buddy Holly" has been slapped on a lot of compilations, regardless of it being the works of the Crickets or not. -Disco dude rock (talk) 17:08, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-17T17:08:00.000Z","author":"Disco dude rock","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Disco_dude_rock-2016-10-17T17:08:00.000Z-Elfast-2016-10-17T14:17:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

"It has been reverted back to its original credits" because they chose to use the original cover. Can you judge objectively that this and the credits on the compilations are mistakes ?

The "Chirping" Crickets is still widely considered as a Buddy Holly or Buddy Holly and the Crickets album (rolling stone magazine or even amazon for instance).

Anyway, you can't study Buddy Holly (as an artist or a singer) without studying the Cricket, or The "Chirping" Crickets. That's why it has to appear in the infobox.

Elfast (talk) 20:40, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-17T20:40:00.000Z","author":"Elfast","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Elfast-2016-10-17T20:40:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","replies":["c-Roman_Spinner-2016-10-23T03:31:00.000Z-Elfast-2016-10-17T20:40:00.000Z"]}}-->

Both Disco dude rock and Elfast have presented persuasive arguments but, ultimately, Elfast's presentation is the stronger one. Even if there is an overlap between this template and Template:The Crickets, such an overlap is a natural one in view of the inextricable link between Buddy Holly and The Crickets. The argument for inclusion is well made, but since template talk pages usually draw a rather small audience, greater participation, if desired, may be attracted by listing this exchange at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American music, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rock music, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Discographies, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Record Charts and, possibly, other related talk pages which appear upon numerous watch lists. I am also adding a link to this discussion, for the record, at Template talk:The Crickets —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:31, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-23T03:31:00.000Z","author":"Roman Spinner","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Roman_Spinner-2016-10-23T03:31:00.000Z-Elfast-2016-10-17T20:40:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"\u2014Roman Spinner"}}-->

Ok I've just asked for participation in the talk pages you've linked. Elfast (talk) 14:21, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-25T14:21:00.000Z","author":"Elfast","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Elfast-2016-10-25T14:21:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","replies":["c-Rlendog-2016-10-25T16:54:00.000Z-Elfast-2016-10-25T14:21:00.000Z"]}}-->

I agree that the Crickets songs need to be included here. It doesn't make sense to remove those songs from a Buddy Holly template. Rlendog (talk) 16:54, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-25T16:54:00.000Z","author":"Rlendog","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Rlendog-2016-10-25T16:54:00.000Z-Elfast-2016-10-25T14:21:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Ok, I think I can make the change. Elfast (talk) 00:10, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-29T00:10:00.000Z","author":"Elfast","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Elfast-2016-10-29T00:10:00.000Z-Disco_dude_rock-2014-09-01T02:49:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->