User talk:Esowteric/Archives/2020/September

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Esowteric. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Let me clear this up without lying to you: I've never made a second account here, as you speculate. But, perhaps, as you stated, both of us use Grammarly. The reason why I said this is because I'm not the same person. In fact, I've created my account last year before Zackomode joined in (if you look at my edit history or the date I joined). Anyway, I promise I'll stop using Grammarly unless there are grammatical errors (not including quotes). I'll talk to Zackomode about it. Emotioness Expression (talk) 09:25, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Zackomode has been confirmed as your sock and indeffed. Here's the SPI link. Esowteric+Talk 19:51, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

An "editor" who apparently believes Galland didn't insert the orphan tales, but "restored" them from "earlier European versions" from the "original Arabic text" has been attacking the lede of this one. Please, I think I need some help maintaining the facts here. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 20:45, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I saw their editing, which looked too "bold", and the developing revert war. Unfortunately, I'm not a subject expert. Esowteric+Talk 07:45, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Again, though I have had little involvement with such content disputes, here's some documentation about resolving content disputes. Perhaps, as a first step, you might take the matter to the article's talk page? Esowteric+Talk 07:58, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Have left a message on both your talk pages. Esowteric+Talk 10:54, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

I have gone through your contributions in the past, you have done a great job(not being sarcastic or humorous). Sorry that we happen to meet the way we met on Wiki. Hope we get along! :) I am sorry if I hurt your feelings in any way. Apologize for all the other things too. <3 ^_^ AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 07:40, 15 September 2020 (UTC) has given you a dove! Doves promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day happier. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a dove, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past (this fits perfectly) or a good friend. Cheers!

---

Spread the peace of doves by adding {{subst:Peace dove}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message!

Many thanks. I just got a "bee in my bonnet" trying to help out someone who seems to be a rising star and deserves some recognition for her work (I've lost count of the number of articles at wikipedia that I've come across that have been here for years with even as few as one, two or three primary sources). Esowteric+Talk 10:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with your good intentions & gesture. My only concern was about the misleading tags of Net Worth on both the articles and also in references, nothing much on her social media either. I called up UCL office, and they said they don't have a team of StudentUnion on campus who are dedicated to writing Wikipedian articles of their Alumni. So, the story that was left by them was a lie. Your intentions are pure and helpful. You are very kind, hope no one uses you for your kindness. AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 10:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	For your 14 years of contributions on Wikipedia. :) AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 07:42, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks again! Esowteric+Talk 10:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC) (aka "BOF": boring old fart).

	The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
	For undoing falsities on Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone <3 :) AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 11:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Today's my lucky day! :D Esowteric+Talk 11:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Dear Esowteric,

We are the Students Union at UCL. We are thankful for your time to leave some useful comments on one of our page's i.e Aliza Ayaz. We have just noticed them and will be working to improve them, although the team is a bit confused and unsure about how best improve the page. I notice the page say's "nominated for deletion". Is there any you could please consider not nominating for deletion? We would have to make the page from scratch and can verify that it is genuine. We are more than happy to organise Teams or Zoom calls with one or two of our team members to discuss this. We promise to try our best to work on this but are a little overwhelmed with other commitments at the SU. Could we please have some time to work on this - the current notices that appear on the page could be embarrassing for the university's image and the Students Union specific team members. If you could perhaps help us improve, we welcome absolutely any suggestions and changes as well. We would just request some kind guidance and help please. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Studentsunion (talk • contribs) 16:07, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Studentsunion: Hi, thanks a lot for your message. I've tried to make some improvements to the referencing of the article, so that other editors can more-easily see that some of the references are reliable, rather than bare URLs. I think your best bet would be to add a comment / message and post it here at the article deletion page before it closes (they may send your article back to draft, unpublished form). I'm sorry you've had to go through this ordeal. I know it's not easy editing at Wikipedia. Esowteric+Talk 16:19, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

One of the suspected sockpuppet IP address is from UK in Dartford. They are not from any student union or from Pakistan. Very likely either Paid, self, or family(because of the suspected creation of the brother's page and 350 million pounds and 380 million pounds net worth on Aliza). Will update this on SPI AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 16:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Not to put too fine a point on it, AngusMEOW, that is really not helpful. The creator of the article, Az.jooma was most likely based in Pakistan where the subject previously went to grammar school. The others look like they're students from UCL, where the subject is studying, in England (as their usernames suggest). Esowteric+Talk 16:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Username doesn't tell anything about where these accounts are from, IP addresses will reveal. Check my reply on your comment on SPI. Thanks! AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 16:56, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Dear Esowteric, hope this message finds you well. My colleague suggested that I leave a message with you directly just as he did earlier. I am writing to thank you and kindly update you on the discussion (Since we are all not very sure how the process works or what's going to happen next). I commented the following on the present comments on behalf of my team:

"Responding to useful chain aboveDear all, thank you very much for sharing your useful comments. I am sorry, but I believe I must clarify, I am not even sure whether this is the right way to respond to your comments so where pointed out that the team and I are not well versed in making or editing Wikipedia pages, this is true. At the Students Union, we are a group of sabbatical officers, employed staff, and other members who are UCL alumni i.e recent graduates. As a Union of the University College London (UCL), we maintain access to all student records including general personal information. You can verify this across the internet or by calling UCL. We ensure consent from the student in publicising their information, even when not already publicised. As we are a team of over 32 people, almost all of whom maintain access to our social media, wikipedia log in's and so on, it is very much possible that conflicting edits were made but this was all solely to try to improve our content. Where there have been immature edits, we can only apologise. We all work from the same place and hence the same IP address so that is not surprising. We have noted all the comments above and to add to a list of verifiable and notability, UCL has various webpages that share her achievements over time. As a mere student representative at the House of Lords (and not actually a Baroness or permanent member), she is not enlisted on the HoL websites but is a confirmed and current representative. Our team is also very much careful in promoting our best students and members and ensure reliability as we cannot suffer backlash in representing incorrect or inappropriate information. In places where we have used direct quotes from her, we feel they added a face and value to her activism and how she successfully led to the UK Parliament declaring the climate emergency. All quotes are available on publicly available podcasts - perhaps even a quick google search will help. Again, I must say that edits have been made by different team members at different points and unfortunately no one has kept track. We do not have a system for accountability yet but lesson learned. As pointed out, various news channels have covered her work. She has been invited and involved with Cambridge and Oxford University too. I am continually discussing the above chain in my group chat with colleagues and we are looking to inform the subject itself too. However, we remain confused, where is the "net worth" or her brother's page? In any case, all your edits are most welcome. It is a bit hard to keep track of all the Wikipedia guidelines and standards, so does anyone have a suggested manuscript? We can work on the edits immediately to ensure we address (and hopefully avoid) the deletion nomination. Esowteric, especially thank you for advising us and we look forward to improving this. Could anyone confirm the next step please? Thank you so very much to all of you again for the useful discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Studentsunion (talk • contribs) 20:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC) Responding to useful chain above Forgot to address one thing, our team can confirm that KGS is Karachi Grammar School as per our records and her school too participated in the Wikipedia page production. I am told one of our ex-colleagues has had a call with the school about this too. This is not paid editing as the SU is non-for-profit and solely for the students' interests. Hope this helps! Would it help if we provided more links to share her work perhaps? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Studentsunion (talk • contribs) 20:50, 13 September 2020 (UTC)"

Besides this, I wondered what would be the next adequate step? We want to take this as a learning lesson for our work as we plan to create pages for some of our other notable staff too. We also want to avoid the page being deleted as it was a lot of hard work for some of us collating all the information. We apologise very much for failing to meet standards but hope to edit rigorously and ensure editors do not have an issue. We also remain confused about some aspects re: some information about net worth which isn't actually in ther article? also re: are we not allowed to disclose how many siblings she has? One of our team members has confirmed adding this information as it is on student records and also widely known amongst the academic, student and professional community here and didn't think there would be any harm in adding. We are now also working on strictly monitoring who makes edits as it appears that someone may have made edits as a joke or personal attack, although we cannot confirm this. We apologise for the inconvenience and look forward to working together. We thank you very much for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Studentsunion (talk • contribs) 21:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks, the deletion discussion is on my watch list, and hopefully you'll receive helpful advice from other editors there regarding the next step/s. It could be that they decide to "draftify" the article. That is, unpublish it and save it as a draft. Esowteric+Talk 21:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

"Forgot to address one thing, our team can confirm that KGS is Karachi Grammar School as per our records and her school too participated in the Wikipedia page production. I am told one of our ex-colleagues has had a call with the school about this too." Dear, DGG, do you believe their story? They are addressing this after I started an SPI against them, and one of the initial editors on Aliza Ayaz who claimed they are an IT staff from KGS. Esowteric, claims they are all innocent staff and proud students of UCL and KGS, if you notice on Draft:Aashir Ayaz, which was created by one of the sock, look at the networth of this page, also a similar networth of 380 million pounds was posted on Aliza Ayaz which was removed after I addressed the issue. Also, a very big warn sign is how the Ucliehcs moved the page of Draft:Aashir Ayaz from main space to "User talk" space after I placed a speedy deletion on the page to avoid deletion, which shows they have some experience with Wikipedia. Moreover, their first submission of Aliza Ayaz was declined last year, no edit history of the old deleted draft can be retrieved since the old draft page was deleted. Thank you so much for taking the time, DGG. ^_^ AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 06:48, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@DGG: AngusMEOW (talk · contribs) has left you a message above on my talk page, regarding accusations he's making about editors involved in an AfD here (see Aliza Ayaz). He's also opened an SPI case. For my part, I am assuming good faith until proven otherwise. Esowteric+Talk 08:02, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

WP:Please do not bite the newcomers is also something to bear in mind, AngusMEOW. Esowteric+Talk 08:25, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Not when the sole purpose of the account creation is to promote one person and the parties related to that person. These accounts are created for the promotion of the subject. AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 08:32, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Moreover, Az.jooma isn't a newbie. AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 08:37, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

At AfD, in your nomination, first you said it was "a scam": It wasn't. Then you said it was "paid editing": It wasn't. You said it was "sockpuppetry": It most likely isn't. Yes, it looks like there is an unwitting conflict of interest (COI). And, no: I am in no way affiliated with the subject, Aliza Ayaz, nor with any establishment she attended. I just want to help them establish notability and save the article. Anyhow, I need a belated shower! Esowteric+Talk 08:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

You cannot just say it wasn't, the only reason I removed scam was because there is no strong proof to establish this claim, and the reason why paid editing tag was replaced by COI was because there isn't proof of paid editing "yet", doesn't mean it is not true. So, it is all likely until we get the results, so don't be so optimistic about them being "not sockpuppets' when the SPI is still OPEN. AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 09:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

• As a " a Union of the University College London (UCL), we maintain access to all student records including general personal information.... We ensure consent from the student in publicising their information, even when not already publicise" you would do better not to write articles about the alumni of your own college, tho it is not prohibited If you do, you should be scrupulously careful, going thru AfC, declaring your conflict of interest, and being certain there are excellent references. You should be especially careful in writing article on those associated with your Union.-- that is a close enough relationship that you MUST declar the coi, and my advice would be to write about almost anything else. If a person connected with the union is notable, someone without COI will know about them and write the article. I personally do not consider it paid editing . in the narrow sense I think we should use it, but others here think it's so close as to make little difference. It it is certainly editing with a very strong COI. Experience shows it is close to impossible to write NPOV article about people closely associated with oneself--hence the strictures.

There is another problem: we permit editing only by individuals, not groups. Some individual people need to take the responsibility. If you are team writing such article, you are going about it wrong. If your " team is also very much careful in promoting our best students and members " everything written by them needs very strict scrutiny. This is exactly the type of editing COI was designed to prevent. DGG ( talk ) 09:48, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi again! :) I wondered what your opinion is in terms of deleting or editing the "Awards" section from the Aliza Ayaz article? I was reading the discussion on the deletion nomination page and it appears that might be a problematic area. I know, as does the university and UN, that those are genuine awards but not sure if the current references suffice? I will try to contact the subject itself to see if there is anything but from what I see online, it's already been referenced. There are some LinkedIn posts that she has seem to have uploaded in the past (one of which is a genuine letter of commendation from the UN, this would obviously not be uploaded on a website as it was sent by post but this is genuine and you can tell.) but don't think I can reference these LinkedIn posts (but you might want to take a look?). This way we could avoid any red flags that contribute to likelihood of deletion or so. Let me know if you have any editors who can help us improve please.

Thanks so much for your help. Best wishes.

Editing since 2006 is a wealth of experience! Well done you. And haha, yes, I must admit I was a bit taken aback with the whole discussion and really confused about the issue(s) but hopefully they will be sorted soon. I was also wondering - out of the notices on the article currently - one of them says something about being written by "a close connection". Since it has been established this is not the case and not paid editing etc, would one of us be able to remove it? Especially since all information is on the internet through verifiable sources, would it be possible/ok to address the "close connection" issue? I am trying to tackle each issue one by one. All the best with all your other pages/edits/articles! Studentsunion (talk) 15:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi, it's important to use as many independent, secondary reliable sources as possible. However, you can use primary sources or sources that are associated with the subject sparingly for uncontroversial facts. So, I don't see why you couldn't use UCL as a source for awards from UCL. They're not going to lie about such simple facts. I would avoid the use of social media, as they are not reliable, independent sources that professionally and independently vet and edit content. For LinkedIn, see WP:External links/Perennial websites. Also note that material must be verifiable by editors and readers, so the material needs to be readily-accessible (eg online or in a book, etc). Esowteric+Talk 15:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, for LinkedIn, I meant WP:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, and as a source or an external link, it's a "no-no". Esowteric+Talk 15:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Self-published / self-written material is not a reliable source. So a Guardian article by Aliza would be unreliable but could be listed; a Guardian article by someone else about Aliza would be reliable. Esowteric+Talk 15:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

The COI banner needs to stay for now. Esowteric+Talk 15:23, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, that's me told: "The number of years you have been on Wikipedia shouldn't influence whether the subject is notable or not(I also clarified this on the talk page of the article as well). I don't think you have enough experience in NPP on this platform. You are extremely good at SPI though. Peace! :)" ~ AngusMEOW, twice elsewhere. Esowteric+Talk 17:58, 14 September 2020 (UTC)