User talk:NatGertler

I am mostly retired from article editing on Wikipedia, retaining my account primarily for taking care of promises I had made to help set up a small number of articles, to suggest reversion of damaging changes on pages I monitor, and to be able to request edits on pages related to myself and my work. Nonetheless, if you do need to contact me on something specific, a message on this talk page will still trigger an email and thus likely be seen.

This is NatGertler's talk page, where you can send him messages and comments.

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Hey Nat! I appriciate you editing the page to "four children" instead. I'm the one who changed it to transgender son and three daughters as I am said transgender son 😅I just thought you'd wanna know! the three girls they have are also my bio sisters. I won't be changing it back tho as I agree with your viewpoint for safety. Again, thank you for your concern! CallMeKJ003 (talk) 15:06, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240613150600","author":"CallMeKJ003","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-CallMeKJ003-20240613150600-Recent_edit_to_Ralph_Shortey's_wiki_page","replies":["c-NatGertler-20240613152500-CallMeKJ003-20240613150600"]}}-->

@CallMeKJ003: I suspected that that was likely the case (either that the specific son or someone close to the family was making the change.) However, the fact is that of course anyone can edit, and can even do so claiming that they are a specific involved person -- we do have ways to double-check that if there is some real need to, but they are a hassle. Even if we knew you were you, there is still Wikipedia's verifiability requirement, where readers should be able to check listed sources for any information of import, so that they don't have to trust the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. This is particularly important for edits like the one that you made, because while you probably just didn't want to be misidentified, you can imagine that someone of a certain political bent might make a similar edit in an attempt to discredit the subject of an article, or even to discredit Wikipedia itself (editing Wikipedia means dealing with bad actors fairly frequently.)

Thank you for your effort to improve the accuracy of Wikipedia. Have a fine life! -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:25, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240613152500","author":"NatGertler","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-NatGertler-20240613152500-CallMeKJ003-20240613150600","replies":[],"displayName":"Nat Gertler"}}-->

Thanks for making those changes. You really improved the article! MaskedSinger (talk) 14:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240625145300","author":"MaskedSinger","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-MaskedSinger-20240625145300-Campbell_Brown","replies":[]}}-->

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by SafariScribe was:

This submission is not adequately supported by reliable sources. Reliable sources are required so that information can be verified. If you need help with referencing, please see Referencing for beginners and Citing sources.

 The comment the reviewer left was:

Thime subject is notable per WP:ANYBIO, just that the lack of sourcing of this WP:BLP is grossly appealing, and needs attention. Don't resubmit if you don't replace with reliable sources that significantly covered the subject researches or himself.

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Matt Strassler and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 14:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240630140400","author":"SafariScribe","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-SafariScribe-20240630140400-Your_submission_at_Articles_for_creation:_Matt_Strassler_(June_30)","replies":[],"displayName":"Safari Scribe"}}-->

Hello, NatGertler! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 14:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240630140400","author":"SafariScribe","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-SafariScribe-20240630140400-Your_submission_at_Articles_for_creation:_Matt_Strassler_(June_30)-1","replies":[],"displayName":"Safari Scribe"}}-->

Matt Strassler, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk. Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider leaving us some feedback.

Thanks again, and happy editing!

Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 22:03, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240630220300","author":"SafariScribe","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-SafariScribe-20240630220300-Your_submission_at_Articles_for_creation:_Matt_Strassler_has_been_accepted","replies":[],"displayName":"Safari Scribe"}}-->

Go for it, within reason of course, WP:BEBOLD. Ask for my input if needed, I have reviewed many faculty pages. Odd things do happen; mine got attacked and still contains misinformation which due to COI I cannot change. So it goes.

N.B., you will lose about the name, I did on mine! Ldm1954 (talk) 23:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240630231200","author":"Ldm1954","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ldm1954-20240630231200-Editing_Matt_Gertler_page","replies":["c-NatGertler-20240630232000-Ldm1954-20240630231200","c-SafariScribe-20240630233300-Ldm1954-20240630231200"]}}-->

No, I won on the page name, I wanted Matt Strassler and there it landed.

I am perhaps generally more scrupulous about WP:COI than I need to be, but feel as someone who both edits under his own name and who has a Wikipedia page, too much attention will be drawn, so I tend to try to work through proper channels on non-minor edits before pulling a WP:IAR excuse (although I did have to do that eventually on my own page, where the person who responded to my edit request was making up silly reasons for keeping some information outdated.)

I got the page up, finally (an thank you for your help in the end), now it's in the hands of all. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240630232000","author":"NatGertler","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-NatGertler-20240630232000-Ldm1954-20240630231200","replies":["c-SafariScribe-20240630233400-NatGertler-20240630232000"],"displayName":"Nat Gertler"}}-->

@NatGertler, thanks finally for your kind (non harsh) words. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 23:34, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240630233400","author":"SafariScribe","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-SafariScribe-20240630233400-NatGertler-20240630232000","replies":[],"displayName":"Safari Scribe"}}-->

I am sorry I have to jump in here. @Ldm1954, before you take an editor to a noticeboard or to any place (not including mine now), it's due diligence to sort it out with the editor first. This things help keep civility herein. Also don't forget that here is a free world where people volunteer. It's somewhat a stress especially for so many including me–preparing my next apostolic work as a Catholic clergy and theologian. Please it's a passionate appeal. Everybody isn't expected to be perfect, and many doesn't know this is how this should be. All the best! Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 23:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240630233300","author":"SafariScribe","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-SafariScribe-20240630233300-Ldm1954-20240630231200","replies":["c-NatGertler-20240630234600-SafariScribe-20240630233300"],"displayName":"Safari Scribe"}}-->

As the US's largest publisher of cartoons about Catholic clergy (odd, but I'm pretty sure it's true), I wish for you both wisdom and humor in your new work. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240630234600","author":"NatGertler","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-NatGertler-20240630234600-SafariScribe-20240630233300","replies":["c-SafariScribe-20240701001700-NatGertler-20240630234600"],"displayName":"Nat Gertler"}}-->

It isn't odd, I mean Catholics are pretty symbolical especially with stuffs like that; cartoons on biblical message for children, bulletin, etc. Sunday liturgy and evening vespers is one of my best in the breviary (you mayn't known this one), and I am sure in Nigeria, cartoonist (not as notable as you) do sell massively today). Thank you for the prayer. I am far from the journey too, at least a theologian one entering the second year will take up to three years before my diaconate and then priestly ordination. Thanks though. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 00:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240701001700","author":"SafariScribe","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-SafariScribe-20240701001700-NatGertler-20240630234600","replies":["c-NatGertler-20240701011700-SafariScribe-20240701001700"],"displayName":"Safari Scribe"}}-->

Oh, I don't think it's at all odd that someone is the biggest publisher of Catholic cartoons in the US; it's just odd that my own atheistic Jewish self is the one. (Primarily, reprints of 1950s publicatons from Catholic cartoon specialty presses.) But I am glad to hear that the cartooning charge lives well in Nigeria! -- Nat Gertler (talk) 01:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240701011700","author":"NatGertler","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-NatGertler-20240701011700-SafariScribe-20240701001700","replies":[],"displayName":"Nat Gertler"}}-->

(The Happy Place is currently protected so I can't comment there, hence my missive here) I had a little look at this and the SPI. It seems to me it might be prudent to show the letter to Arbcom since they're the people who deal with off-wiki evidence and the like. They might, for instance, recognise a connection to a user via other off-wiki evidence we don't have (they maintain a private wiki that I assume is for collating such things?).

Truthfully, the answer will probably be 'thanks for showing us, very concerning, but it didn't connect to anything'. But, probably best checking and letting them decide that though. :) 78.149.135.163 (talk) 23:41, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240802234100","author":"78.149.135.163","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-78.149.135.163-20240802234100-Legal_threat","replies":["c-NatGertler-20240802235000-78.149.135.163-20240802234100"]}}-->

I will keep that. in mind. Thanks. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:50, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240802235000","author":"NatGertler","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-NatGertler-20240802235000-78.149.135.163-20240802234100","replies":[],"displayName":"Nat Gertler"}}-->

I just wanted to say I enjoyed your recent intervention in the IMDB section of the RSN. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:35, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240822163500","author":"Bobfrombrockley","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bobfrombrockley-20240822163500-Ibid.","replies":[]}}-->

It is nice to meet someone who interested in editing Richard Bach Bio, I am currently writing a large article on Russian Wiki about him, thank you for your help, will you participate? If it is so... where we can communicate with each other? Kira Leonic (talk) 09:05, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240830090500","author":"Kira Leonic","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kira_Leonic-20240830090500-Richard_Bach","replies":["c-NatGertler-20240830114400-Kira_Leonic-20240830090500"]}}-->

I can't say that I have a huge amount of information about Bach (nor any knowledge of Russian), and I have a lot of existing projects. As such, I'm not going to be able to offer much help. If you have specific questions, I'd be glad to answer what I can here on this talk page. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 11:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240830114400","author":"NatGertler","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-NatGertler-20240830114400-Kira_Leonic-20240830090500","replies":["c-Kira_Leonic-20240831060700-NatGertler-20240830114400"],"displayName":"Nat Gertler"}}-->

It's ok, we can freely communicate on English. I will ask you something later, glad to meet you! Kira Leonic (talk) 06:07, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240831060700","author":"Kira Leonic","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Kira_Leonic-20240831060700-NatGertler-20240830114400","replies":[]}}-->

Sorry I am not familiar with how to use talk. Was it really necessary to undo all my painstaking edits on the Vanity Press page, just because you objected to the changes in the first paragraph?

You may not have noticed that the first reference in the original version was a self-promotional citation for someone's book. The website I cited was promoting a business but it had good, solid, impartial information on that particular page and was the best source I was able to find.

Marisa Wright — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marisawriter (talk • contribs) 08:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240903081400","author":"Marisawriter","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Marisawriter-20240903081400-Vanity_publishing","replies":[]}}-->

Dear NatGertler, I actually really don't assume bad faith on your part, but I would like you to disengage from my contributions for a while. We both know that you have followed me around in the past. Let's just both cool that down a bit. I'm very sensitive about that for various reasons. Biohistorian15 (talk) 10:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240903102100","author":"Biohistorian15","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Biohistorian15-20240903102100-September_2024","replies":["c-NatGertler-20240903145000-Biohistorian15-20240903102100"]}}-->

I'm going to answer simply "no". You can ask me not to post on your talk page (where, since my posting a needed warning, my efforts have been to set up archiving as you seem to desire, and to note a place where your message was unclear due to a typo), but I am not going to give a problematic edit or an article with issues a pass because you're involved. My involvement at Talk:Robby Starbuck occurred because the issue arose on WP:BLPN, a board which I monitor regularly (BLPs being a particular concern of mine), post frequently (as of this morning, I've edited there 190 times as often as you have) and frequently peek in on the pages of the issues being raised to see if there's something I can easily address. I don't think it serves either me nor this project for me to ignore matters because you chose to involve yourself in them.

You do have the option of requesting an interaction ban at the administrators noticeboard, but I suspect you'd need to provide more concern that that I corrected some punctuation on some pages you'd been recently editing. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240903145000","author":"NatGertler","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-NatGertler-20240903145000-Biohistorian15-20240903102100","replies":["c-Biohistorian15-20240903145400-NatGertler-20240903145000"],"displayName":"Nat Gertler"}}-->

Again, I found none of your edits particularly troubling by themselves. I will not be requesting any sanctions obviously. Biohistorian15 (talk) 14:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240903145400","author":"Biohistorian15","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Biohistorian15-20240903145400-NatGertler-20240903145000","replies":[]}}-->

Hi NatGertler. I see that you're mostly retired from editing so feel free to ignore this message. I have this project where I interview other Wikipedians about their experiences here. I'm trying to gather a variety of perspectives and it tends to be difficult to find people who say "no" to wanting to edit for the foreseeable future. So if you'd be willing to chip in there, I'd appreciate it immensely. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 06:55, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240904065500","author":"Clovermoss","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Clovermoss-20240904065500-Editor_experience_invitation","replies":["c-NatGertler-20240904124800-Clovermoss-20240904065500"],"displayName":"Clovermoss\ud83c\udf40"}}-->

My retirement has been less successful than intended, so I don't know if I'm that useful to you. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 12:48, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240904124800","author":"NatGertler","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-NatGertler-20240904124800-Clovermoss-20240904065500","replies":["c-Clovermoss-20240904141500-NatGertler-20240904124800"],"displayName":"Nat Gertler"}}-->

You're still useful if you wish to contribute. :) The more the merrier. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240904141500","author":"Clovermoss","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Clovermoss-20240904141500-NatGertler-20240904124800","replies":[],"displayName":"Clovermoss\ud83c\udf40"}}-->

Hi Nat. Just out of curiosity, what do you find objectionable about the example of a book you publish and is available on IA for one-hour lending? I'm obviously not a comics book publisher and I know you directly publish this book, but I would guess that there isn't much of a market for the 2006 edition of the 24-hour comic day collection. IA only lets people read it for an hour at a time, which is less time than a physical library would lend the book out to someone. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 14:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240907141000","author":"Voorts","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Voorts-20240907141000-Internet_Archive_book_lending","replies":["c-NatGertler-20240907155700-Voorts-20240907141000"]}}-->

Would you mind if someone broke into your house and stole some books, if they weren't books you were planning to read again anyway?

While I do still have some copies to sell at the rare times that I do retail (conventions and the like), I will admit that the 2006 is not as easy a sale as, say, the 2005 edition which IA has also pirated (that volume has the first distributed works of Fiona Staples, Faith Erin Hicks, and others.) The direct financial cost is not always the point. Considerable time, effort, and expense was put into putting that book together, in getting the rights, selecting the content, and designing it in an appealing way. It is under copyright, and will be for many years to come. I worked to get the rights, I paid to get rights for the contents. With that particular volume, I have the rights to (and have been considering) reissuing the exact same book under a slightly different title to not advertise its datedness. Copyright is designed to give rightsholders not just money but also control (the compulsory licenses and government price-setting for music is an exception.)

About Comics is primarily a reprint publisher. That means that much of my work is finding material that someone else thought there was no more worthwhile profits to squeeze from, and finding it a home. I have generated thousands of dollars of royalties for authors off of works that have been out of print for several decades. Had pirated versions been sopping up the interest and demand for those books over those decades, that would not have served these aging authors.

I put effort into designing the editions I publish, whether physical or digital, with proper considerations for each. IA just slams a physical edition on a scanner in whatever way is convenient to them and gets it on the screen somehow, and that's how they create their custom edition.

To knock away any possible talking points:

• I myself made various About Comics publications available for free download during periods within COVID lockdown. This was done with the permissions of any rightsholders. I have no inherent objection to free books.
• I myself have, in the past, donated to the Archive in support of their digitization of public domain materials.
• I love libraries, from both a personal and business viewpoint. Actual libraries buy new copies of books when they are available, lend out the physical versions, and when wear and tear make a copy unsuitable for lending (which is generally a number in the dozens of borrows), they make a replacement copy. For ebooks, they pay a license.
• I recognize and am fine with the legal exceptions for creating special-needs editions of works that do not have that available, and in fact have been (a fair while in the past) a volunteer reader for a local charity which creates audiobooks for blind and dyslexic students.
• IA is not some cute little spunky charity. They're a business with (according to their Wikipedia article) $30 million in annual revenues and 169 employees... which is 169 times as many people as are here at About Comics, and more than that ratio in revenue. They may be small compared to some of the publishers which have the deep pockets to sue them, but to us, they are a behemoth, and to them, my concerns are nothing. That their business model is a combination of selling used books and asking people to keep giving them money so they can keep offering unlicensed ebooks to people does not make them not a business.

You're coming to me at a particularly difficult time to suggest that the rights to old works don't matter. Earlier this week, one of the creators I publish killed himself due in large part to poverty. The four-figure sum in royalties that we have given him over the past couple years, arising largely (but not solely) off of the reprints of decades-old, previously long-out-of-print material, was of course not enough to sustain him forever, but I'd like to think it let him keep around for just a while longer.

Perhaps you think I shouldn't care about any of this, or that you'd do things differently. Thing is, the laws I work within give me certain rights, making it my decision to make... not yours, and certainly no the Archive's. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:57, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240907155700","author":"NatGertler","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-NatGertler-20240907155700-Voorts-20240907141000","replies":["c-Voorts-20240907161400-NatGertler-20240907155700"],"displayName":"Nat Gertler"}}-->

First, I am very sorry for the loss of your friend and collaborator. I also apologize if this came off as me thinking you shouldn't care about these issues or that I was trying to tell you to do things differently. As I stated, I only asked because I was curious about what drives your perspective, and I thank you for sharing it. I happen to agree with some of what you said. In particular, I don't disagree that some sort of licensing regime for these sorts of uses of copyrighted works would be appropriate. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 16:14, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240907161400","author":"Voorts","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Voorts-20240907161400-NatGertler-20240907155700","replies":["c-NatGertler-20240907161900-Voorts-20240907161400"]}}-->

Thank you. Sorry if I came off strident, but as I said, not the best time for getting a calm answer from me for this. Go in peace. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 16:19, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240907161900","author":"NatGertler","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-NatGertler-20240907161900-Voorts-20240907161400","replies":[],"displayName":"Nat Gertler"}}-->