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Template talk:Dwarf planets
Oort__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Oort","replies":[]}}-->
Including Sedna in the Oort cloud is speculation and should not be enshrined as accepted classification. kwami 02:40, 2005 August 2 (UTC)
- Removed the mention of Oort cloud (again). This template is used with {{MinorPlanets_Footer}}, so even the link is not needed.--Jyril 23:22, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Since when is Triton trans-Neptunian? Ken Arromdee 15:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-09-23T15:46:00.000Z","author":"Ken Arromdee","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ken_Arromdee-2005-09-23T15:46:00.000Z-Triton","replies":["c-Jyril-2005-09-23T16:25:00.000Z-Ken_Arromdee-2005-09-23T15:46:00.000Z"]}}-->
- Not since it was captured. Removed. --Jyril 16:25, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-09-23T16:25:00.000Z","author":"Jyril","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Jyril-2005-09-23T16:25:00.000Z-Ken_Arromdee-2005-09-23T15:46:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->
I created an article for (55637) 2002 UX25, it's just a stub for now. I couldn't find any more information, but it has the orbital elements. shaggy 01:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-12-20T01:22:00.000Z","author":"The shaggy one","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-The_shaggy_one-2005-12-20T01:22:00.000Z-2002_UX25","replies":[],"displayName":"shaggy"}}-->
Not to be overposessive of a template I created or anything, but I think a simple KB/SD bifurcation makes more sense in the template. For one, we don't have to mix multiple levels of taxon—spatial-region-a and spatial-region-b is a simple divide, while spatial-region-a-objects, spatial-region-b-objects-with-orbital-characteristics-x and spatial-region-b-objects-with-orbital-characteristics-y is needlessly muddled. Secondly, the KB/SD split preserves the convention of going innermost to outermost, as no KBO is closer to the sun than any SDO (short-term orbital overlaps aside), while cubewanos and plutinos have a hopelessly intermingled neighborhood with no one set clearly closer or farther from the sun (plutinos are, on average, closer, for what it's worth). Finally, there are no shortage of orbital-characteristic-based categorizations that could be applied, despite the fact the template gives the impression there are only three. SDOs, for instance, can be subdivided between those in resonant and non-resonant orbits (2003 UB313 being in 17:5 or something bizarre like that), while KBOs have been found in all manner of odd resonances other than just 3:2 (plutino) and nonresonant (cubewano). -The Tom 15:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-10-02T15:54:00.000Z","author":"The Tom","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-The_Tom-2005-10-02T15:54:00.000Z-Kuiper_belt_categorization","replies":[]}}-->
There's an interesting alternate list here. By their estimation 2002 UX25 should be off and 1996 TL66 and Huya should be on. --Patteroast 23:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-07-09T23:57:00.000Z","author":"Patteroast","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Patteroast-2007-07-09T23:57:00.000Z-Interesting","replies":["c-Double_sharp-2014-06-01T13:54:00.000Z-Patteroast-2007-07-09T23:57:00.000Z"]}}-->
- I added the non-haumeids from Tancredi's list. The haumeids (known or probable) on his list are (55636) 2002 TX300, 2005 RR43, and 2002 OP32: these are probably a lot smaller than the values he uses. (He gives 2002 TX300 as having a diameter of 800 km, when more recent occultation data gives one of only 286 km.) Double sharp (talk) 13:54, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-06-01T13:54:00.000Z","author":"Double sharp","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Double_sharp-2014-06-01T13:54:00.000Z-Patteroast-2007-07-09T23:57:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->
I want to move this template to "Template:Plutoids" because it is more concise. In addition, I do not understand why User:Ckatz revert my move... UU (talk) 08:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-05-13T08:53:00.000Z","author":"UU","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-UU-2009-05-13T08:53:00.000Z-Requested_move","replies":[]}}-->
Combined the two KB sections and the two SD sections. Also changed the wording "candidates" to "likely": they either are DPs or they are not. They are not candidates that will become DPs if recognized. — kwami (talk) 20:44, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-12-23T20:44:00.000Z","author":"Kwamikagami","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kwamikagami-2012-12-23T20:44:00.000Z-sections","replies":[],"displayName":"kwami"}}-->
As Ruslik0 said in his edit summary, "no reason to single out these three bodies". (Though there is consensus that the IAU five should be separated to some extent.) — kwami (talk) 22:15, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-12-25T22:15:00.000Z","author":"Kwamikagami","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kwamikagami-2012-12-25T22:15:00.000Z-sections","replies":[],"displayName":"kwami"}}-->
Okay, I think that's acceptable. It's weird to call them "candidates", since it's not like they become DPs after being evaluated, but that's the wording we use in other articles, so if we change it we should change it everywhere. — kwami (talk) 19:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-12-26T19:58:00.000Z","author":"Kwamikagami","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kwamikagami-2012-12-26T19:58:00.000Z-sections","replies":[],"displayName":"kwami"}}-->
We now have Vesta as a possible former DP. Actually, it's quite clear that it once as a DP, so I don't think we need the question mark. That would be better suited to Psyche and Eunomia, both of which show evidence of differentiation. If we're going to add Vesta, shouldn't we add all known or suspected former DPs in the asteroid belt? What about Phoebe? Triton? — kwami (talk) 20:43, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-03-09T20:43:00.000Z","author":"Kwamikagami","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kwamikagami-2015-03-09T20:43:00.000Z-Former_DPs","replies":["c-JorisvS-2015-03-10T09:17:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2015-03-09T20:43:00.000Z","c-JorisvS-2015-03-10T17:44:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2015-03-09T20:43:00.000Z"],"displayName":"kwami"}}-->
- Triton was once a DP, but no longer because it was captured by Neptune, but has remained physically intact. Phoebe is different because it was both captured and disrupted. I'm not against including these, but it makes sense to think about how to best do this, keeping this template reasonably compact. --JorisvS (talk) 09:17, 10 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-03-10T09:17:00.000Z","author":"JorisvS","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-JorisvS-2015-03-10T09:17:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2015-03-09T20:43:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->
- What about this: --JorisvS (talk) 17:44, 10 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-03-10T17:44:00.000Z","author":"JorisvS","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-JorisvS-2015-03-10T17:44:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2015-03-09T20:43:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->
Gotta go, but I don't think "disrupted out of equilibrium" is right. They froze out of equilibrium and because of that couldn't recover from subsequent battering.
Also, the list (not your version) is getting ridiculous. The list of "possible" DPs (as in anything that could possibly be 200 km in diameter) would be pages long. — kwami (talk) 23:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-08-28T23:54:00.000Z","author":"Kwamikagami","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kwamikagami-2015-08-28T23:54:00.000Z-Former_DPs","replies":[],"displayName":"kwami"}}-->
- The revision was changed just to make it more streamlined. The overall content is mostly the same, but the Kuiper belt category was split into the cubewanos, twotinos, plutinos, and other resonant objects. I decided to keep the possible asteroids to four: Pallas, Hygiea, Eunomia, and Psyche.
All either have an ellipsoidal shape (Pallas, Eunomia, Psyche) or an unknown shape (Hygiea) and are also above 200km. They are the only ones that meet both criteria, hence why I seeked to include them. Changing it to "frozen out of equilibrium" would be a good change. DN-boards1 (talk) 00:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-08-29T00:03:00.000Z","author":"DN-boards1","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-DN-boards1-2015-08-29T00:03:00.000Z-Former_DPs","replies":["c-Kwamikagami-2015-08-29T01:49:00.000Z-DN-boards1-2015-08-29T00:03:00.000Z"]}}-->
- No, they're not ellipsoidal. And the 200km only applies to icy bodies, and even then it's optimistic, given that Proteus is over 400km and not round. No-one thinks that a chunk of iron 300km across (Psyche) is in HE.
- Eunomia is the largest fragment of an asteroid that may be a former DP. Maybe Eunomia family could go in the 'former' category. And Psyche is presumably the core of a former DP. But I'd like to see a ref.
- Pallas and Hygiea are out-of-round. No-one but you is proposing that they might be DPs. Get published in a RS and we can cite you, otherwise this is unsupported OR. — kwami (talk) 01:49, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-08-29T01:49:00.000Z","author":"Kwamikagami","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Kwamikagami-2015-08-29T01:49:00.000Z-DN-boards1-2015-08-29T00:03:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"kwami"}}-->
- I found lightcurve models of Cybele:
http://astro.troja.mff.cuni.cz/projects/asteroids3D/data/archive/1-1000/A483.M783.shape.png
Not QUITE round, possibly a former DP?
But Pallas....
http://astro.troja.mff.cuni.cz/projects/asteroids3D/data/archive/1-1000/A101.M101.shape.png
http://astro.troja.mff.cuni.cz/projects/asteroids3D/data/archive/1-1000/A101.M102.shape.png
I uhh...see a slightly irregular sphere. A prolate spheroid. The lightcurve models seem to show HE in Pallas but not Cybele, Hygiea, Psyche, etc. Pallas is quite clearly close to or in HE. We had some data, i.e. the HST images, that left some questions, but now we have lightcurve data. This obviously looks round. In fact, thus far, it's the ONLY one besides Ceres to do this, to be almost perfectly round. I mean seriously, look at the images. Am I the only one who sees an object in HE here? DN-boards1 (talk) 21:42, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-10-02T21:42:00.000Z","author":"DN-boards1","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-DN-boards1-2015-10-02T21:42:00.000Z-Former_DPs","replies":["c-Double_sharp-2015-10-03T05:44:00.000Z-DN-boards1-2015-10-02T21:42:00.000Z"]}}-->
- Yes, you are only the one to see an object in HE here. Double sharp (talk) 05:44, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-10-03T05:44:00.000Z","author":"Double sharp","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Double_sharp-2015-10-03T05:44:00.000Z-DN-boards1-2015-10-02T21:42:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->
I'm concerned about the development of some of these lists, like that represented by this template on dwarf planets. Wikipedia is supposed to rely on sources. It is not supposed to rely on original research. Yes, it might sometimes seem clear to an individual editor that this or that small chuck of stuff is or is not a dwarf planet, or, similarly, whether it is or is not in hydrostatic equilibrium. But in other cases it really is not clear and it is not for us to try to label things without a source. I perceive that there is some inference going on in the case of this template on dwarf planets. In particular, we have listed as "see also" Charon, Vanth, Dysnomia, and Hi'iaka. Other objects are listed as well. Why? Are these recognized as "dwarf planets" as per some cited source? Yes or no? Is this just some vague association that is being suggested because these are objects that happen to orbit officially designated dwarf planets? The uninitiated reader of the template is not given a clue. What about the objects put into the various categories in this template? Are each of these reliably sourced? More generally, we should not feel compelled to fill out lists of objects, putting this or that object into one or more of several different categories. Lists don't need to be complete. Reporting that an object belongs in a certain category should not rely on our own original research. It should only rely on a cited source. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 06:40, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-09-19T06:40:00.000Z","author":"Isambard Kingdom","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-19T06:40:00.000Z-On_the_seeming_need_to_categorize_things","replies":[]}}-->
- The categorization. About that.
-The organization into plutinos, etc. is for convenience. The Kuiper belt section was getting overly long and crowded, so it was divided into more accurate categories, per the DES.
-Charon, Vanth, Dysnomia, and Hi'iaka have sometimes been called "binary dwarf planets" as
A) They are in hydrostatic equilibrium
B) They are of a large size compared to their parent body - the ratio is actually quite amazing, considering the size.
They each cause a noticeable effect on their parent dwarf planet (I'll consider Orcus to be a DP for convenience here), in the case of Charon and Vanth causing them and their parent body to revolve around a barycenter outside either body, and in the case of Dysnomia and Hi'iaka being prominent and causing them and their parent bodies to be tidally locked to one another.
Basically, those four, if the IAU allowed binary dwarf planets, WOULD be considered DPs. --DN-boards1 (talk) 05:16, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-09-20T05:16:00.000Z","author":"DN-boards1","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T05:16:00.000Z-On_the_seeming_need_to_categorize_things","replies":["c-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T06:24:00.000Z-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T05:16:00.000Z"]}}-->
- Hello? My question is about sources (books, published papers written by authorities). We need to cite them. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 06:24, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-09-20T06:24:00.000Z","author":"Isambard Kingdom","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T06:24:00.000Z-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T05:16:00.000Z","replies":["c-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T06:35:00.000Z-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T06:24:00.000Z"]}}-->
- I don't have a list of sources for binary DPs on me, but quite a lot of people refer to Charon as a binary dwarf planet. I'll get back to you on the other three. --DN-boards1 (talk) 06:35, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-09-20T06:35:00.000Z","author":"DN-boards1","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T06:35:00.000Z-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T06:24:00.000Z","replies":["c-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T06:45:00.000Z-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T06:35:00.000Z"]}}-->
- Sir/Madam, you really don't seem to understand. I'm saying that we need a cited source for every single object in the template. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 06:45, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-09-20T06:45:00.000Z","author":"Isambard Kingdom","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T06:45:00.000Z-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T06:35:00.000Z","replies":["c-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T07:19:00.000Z-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T06:45:00.000Z"]}}-->
- Just to clear things up, I'm a female. --DN-boards1 (talk) 07:19, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-09-20T07:19:00.000Z","author":"DN-boards1","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T07:19:00.000Z-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T06:45:00.000Z","replies":["c-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T07:35:00.000Z-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T07:19:00.000Z"]}}-->
- Either way, I am concerned. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 07:35, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-09-20T07:35:00.000Z","author":"Isambard Kingdom","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T07:35:00.000Z-DN-boards1-2015-09-20T07:19:00.000Z","replies":["c-Double_sharp-2015-09-21T04:03:00.000Z-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T07:35:00.000Z","c-Double_sharp-2015-09-21T04:05:00.000Z-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T07:35:00.000Z"]}}-->
- Dysnomia's size is not known very well. At the bottom end it may be only 100 km in diameter, which is surely not enough for HE. At the upper end it may be 734 km in diameter! So we should be very careful about that one. Hi'iaka is at ≈320 km, which is only "maybe". Vanth seems to be more sure than either of these, with the colour suggesting albedo 0.12 that would give 378(100) km.
- As for Charon, the double-planet thing seems to be common, but alas, not an idea picked up by all that many RS's. Here's NASA (and that was the only RS I found up there in the Google hits...) Even the old IAU 12-planet resolution, which would have called Charon a planet, doesn't seem to mention "double planet". (Though maybe we might have better luck searching Alan Stern's writings?) Double sharp (talk) 04:03, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-09-21T04:03:00.000Z","author":"Double sharp","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Double_sharp-2015-09-21T04:03:00.000Z-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T07:35:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->
- P.S. Tidal locking is not really known for any of them save the Pluto—Charon and Orcus—Vanth systems. Double sharp (talk) 04:05, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-09-21T04:05:00.000Z","author":"Double sharp","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Double_sharp-2015-09-21T04:05:00.000Z-Isambard_Kingdom-2015-09-20T07:35:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->
Just noting that the black and white photo of Ceres should be replaced with the colour version released in October. 134340Goat (talk) 04:14, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-03-04T04:14:00.000Z","author":"134340Goat","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-134340Goat-2016-03-04T04:14:00.000Z-Ceres","replies":["c-JorisvS-2016-03-04T11:23:00.000Z-134340Goat-2016-03-04T04:14:00.000Z"]}}-->
 Done. --JorisvS (talk) 11:23, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-03-04T11:23:00.000Z","author":"JorisvS","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-JorisvS-2016-03-04T11:23:00.000Z-134340Goat-2016-03-04T04:14:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->
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